Addressing Racism and Sexism in Wikipedia: A Panel Discussion

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Addressing Racism and Sexism in Wikipedia: A Panel Discussion

Addressing Racism and Sexism in Wikipedia: A Panel Discussion


– [Presenter] Welcome,
everyone, thanks for coming. We’re happy to have you. My name is Shannon Monroe, Co-Chair of the FSM Cafe Committee. – [Presenter] And I’m Melissa Martin. Just to give you a
little bit of background, the Free Speech Movement
Educational Program at UC Berkeley Library is designed to engage the campus community with issues related to
the free speech movement and the wide range of activities the movement helped to inspire, including free speech
activism and social change. Our committee is made up
of a group of library staff who are dedicated to free speech. We welcome student groups and
others to submit applications for programs to be held in
the Free Speech Movement Cafe, and information on how
to propose a program is available on our website. – [Presenter] So, tonight we have a very distinguished panel. I’m glad to have you with us. We are, tonight, connected with, we’re collaborating with
the Wikipedia Edit-a-Thon, which is on Tuesday, March 5th. Our talk tonight is addressing racism and sexism in Wikipedia,
a panel discussion. And first up, we have Miss, oh, excuse me. (muttering) We have Miss Juana Maria Rodriguez, professor here at Berkeley,
Professor of Ethnic Studies and core faculty in Performance Studies, and the author of two books, Queer Latinad: Identity
Practices, Discursive Spaces from New York Press in 2003, and Sexual Futures, Queer Gestures, and Other Latina Longings
from New York Press in 2014, which also won the Alan
Bray Memorial Book Prize at the Modern Language Association and was a Lambda Literary
Foundation finalist, whoa, for LGBT Studies.
(chuckling) That’s amazing. And she is currently working on a book on visual culture and Latina sexual labor, and coediting a special issue of TSQ: Transgender Studies Quarterly on Trans Studies en las Americas. – [Presenter] And next,
we have Merilee Proffitt. Merilee works in the Online
Computer Library Center Research and provides project management skills and expert support to institutions within the OCLC Research
Library Partnership. She’s passionate about
foregoing connections between Wikimedia projects and cultural heritage institutions. She’s the Editor of Leveraging Wikipedia: Connecting Communities of
Knowledge ALA Editions 2018. Oh! She’s also (chuckling) an active member of the Society of American Archivists and the Rare Books and Manuscripts Section of the Association of College
and Research Libraries. She has served on the Metidata and Coding and
Transmission Standard Met’s Editorial Board, the Text and Coding Initiative Council, and on the Encoded Archival
Description Working Group. – [Presenter] And lastly, but not least, we have Victoria Robinson. She’s the Director of the
American Culture Center and a lecturer here at UC Berkeley in the Ethnic Studies and
Women’s Studies departments, teaching courses that
address race and ethnicity in the United States and
global female migrations. And also, Doctor Robinson’s
most recent scholarship and teaching reveals the woven connections between mass incarceration, immigration, detention, and deportation, and centrally, those community-based movements which seek to mobilize the political and social rights of
those inside and outside, in those inside and
between walls and cages. Please welcome our three panelists. (clapping) (chuckling) – [Panelist] Thank you for inviting us. This is a real pleasure, to be
with friends, and colleagues, and maybe people we don’t know yet. But the library has a
special place on campus and has been a home for me in particular. Just want to call out Corliss Lee, who’s the long-term Librarian for the American Culture,
way before I came on campus, and you continue to be a
stalwart for the program. So thank you. So, the history of the
American Cultures Program and Wikipedia goes back
to this gentleman here. His name was Kevin Gorman, and he was a very interesting
and fascinating guy. The first time he’d actually
entered formal education was when he came to UC Berkeley. He was an autodidact, he was self-taught, mainly through illness and
multiple overlapping illnesses. His passions were fungi and Wikipedia. (chuckling) I’m not sure the connection,
never have really delved into why that connection, but it existed. And Kevin came into my office one day and said “I hear you’re kind of a shaker, “and a mover, and a troublemaker.” I was like “Okay, I can take that.” He said “But I have this idea. “I’ve been really working on the absence “of feminist philosophy
on Wikipedia pages, “and I really want to figure
out an institutional home “for doing work inside the University.” And, of course, not coming through institutionalized education, he thought anything could happen. And that was great because he was right. So we made up the title of
First Wikipedian in Residence at a UC, at any university
in the United States, and we just went with it. And it was really important
to really put Kevin at the front of this first effort to work, because we needed somebody
who was passionate about the power of
Wikipedia, and also the ways in which you could scaffold a
site of learning for students, and also lessen the
burden for the faculty. Faculty are really busy. And as I was just sharing to Juana Maria, I have another opportunity for her. And we’re always given opportunities, but it normally means a
hell of a lot of work. So it was important to come
up with a model at Berkeley that meant that we lowered
the barriers to involvement. And at that point in
time, Wikipedia had many, many barriers to involvement. It required some coding. It didn’t have the kinda infrastructure and overlay that it does today. But why AC and Wikipedia? Well, American Cultures is the single graduation
requirement for UC Berkeley. It’s center is a deep
dive into an analysis of race and ethnicity. It’s hard work. It’s often also hard to,
within a 15 week semester, engage students into the
everyday lived complexities of those massive deep historical roots around race in the United States, but also for them to feel enabled in ways that they can build
their own understandings and their own intimacies
to those histories. So we’re always looking for vehicles. What is a vehicle that
builds student excitement, expertise, their own lived experiences, their own relationship,
to very big topics, and present it in a scholastic manner? And that’s kind of Wikipedia in sum, is that it’s so exciting when you first get your hands on a Wikipedia page. And then you see your stuff up there, and you’re like that was me. And then you send the
URL home to your mum, and she’s like “You did that?” You know, there’s this
kind of social engagement that I think is always
wanted in an AC classroom to make students feel like they really are a central part of the course. But more importantly, I
think the American Cultures curriculum was really
thinking about Wikipedia, because also, we were being challenged by a new program, which is called the American Cultures
Engaged Scholarship Program. What this does is it builds
in community partnerships into university research
projects with faculty and develops assignments
so that the students can participate in that research alliance of the community and the faculty. And I was just sharing with Juana Maria before we entered this space,
is that it’s very interesting when thinking about what
community means to a student and how you demonstrate
in very specific ways the community interest
in needs and expertise that come from their
own lived experiences. So we have a lot of work
to do in shifting the idea that the university is the expert and that we’re the site of the knowledge, and the idea the ACES Program, the American Cultures
Engaged Scholarship Program, was to kind of foster
this delta of exchange. But often, for a student,
when they see community as something that is there for them as part of a learning
environment, they see service. And service is really important, but the idea of serving a community is so much more complicated
than just being in a community. What does it mean to kind of foster one’s intellectual knowledge in service of and with
a community partner? And it was really important in 2014 that we were thinking about
the idea of the public meaning of the university and how
undergraduate students would participate in that. So this is kind of the
big background to it. But a good example of how
this kind of philosophy, this vision, of AC coming
together with Wikipedia showed up was I’m always the guinea
pig for the program. You know, you can’t tell, ask, your faculty to do anything
until you’ve kind of made sure that there’s no real hazards. So I used my big Ethnic Studies Introduction to Abolition,
Pedagogy, and Practice, and that class is often, always, not often, always had
partnerships at the center of it, from community, articulating what it means to live in castral state,
what it means to be policed, what it means to be
surveilled, what does it mean to be detained, and
how to resist all that. And there’s a very great organization here in Oakland called
Critical Resistance. And this was when we were facing some of the big ballot
propositions in California. So we have this relationship
with Critical Resistance, a partner who’s working
in the AC curriculum, happens to be my class. And the quandary of Critical
Resistance, who works on prison abolition and
very specific reform issues, is how do we get the voters to understand things in ways that they
don’t think about so far. So they’re about propositions such as the reversal of three strikes. There were questions of youth detention, of juvenile sentencing,
of the death penalty. And the airwaves were flooded with ideas brought from particularly DA positions and more reformist organizations about what people should think. And Critical Resistance was like we don’t know what to do about this. And it took about six, eight weeks of really thinking about
what a UC Berkeley student could do with this question. And then Kevin is, like,
whispering in my ear “Well, Wikipedia, Wikipedia.” I’m like that makes sense, right. So with Corliss, we developed
annotated bibliographies. This is really important, is that, so, Critical Resistance came up with, and I’ve got a handout here of how we actually made this happen in the class. ‘Cause it had to be really scaffolded. Critical Resistance
came up with key themes that they wanted us to focus on that they knew that the
public would be voting on, and our challenge was to take those themes and look for Wikipedia
pages relevant to them or develop new Wikipedia pages for them. And so it was an opinion-based work. We worked with Corliss to come up with the annotated bibliography spine, and then stage one of this assignment was the annotated bibliography. And out of that, in small groups, they came together to
develop the Wikipedia pages. So today, if you Googled, it’s a common term now, but
when we were doing this, we didn’t have Michelle Alexander. If you Google the Prison
Industrial Complex, it’s so lovely that now the
top one is an Abolition link. But the second link is the
Wikipedia Google search link, and this is the site that
was created by the students. I think, I can’t remember the
millions of hits it’s had now, but it’s had millions of hits. And that’s just one. There’s others, such as the No Nude SF Jail Expansion Project. There is the work on
the county jail in LA. There’s a whole set of them. But I think what was really
important about doing this work is that it was bringing in
a skill for the community, but based on knowledge with the community that they didn’t have the bandwidth for. It presented to the students, one, the shortcomings of something
that they commonly used. It asked them to think about Wikipedia in its dusty form, as unfinished. And it got them to think really closely about what was absent and what was present in ways that was disturbing,
such as racism and sexism. And so there’s intimacy
between the partner, the undergraduate expertise,
and the opportunities to engage kinda changed
everything in those students, those kind of students’ experiences, both in the class, this
diversity requirement, but also the ways in which
they saw their own labor as relative to a community partner, and how those partners were addressing, day to day, the elements of
everyday sexism and racism. So, I think I’m almost over time, right? That sounds I am on over time. I knew I’d do that. I’m sorry. I’ll answer questions
in a bit. (chuckling) – [Presenter] Okay, thank you.
– [Panelist] Sorry. – [Presenter] No, that’s great. – [Panelist] That was a lot. And these can be given out when you want. – [Panelist] Such a good
and inspirational kickoff. I’m gonna take a much more
nuts and bolts approach. So, I come from the library perspective, and I actually started my career as a student employee and
then library worker in 1988, working in the Regional
Oral History Office, which is now, I think,
the Oral History Center. And in those days in 1988,
getting information out meant making photocopies of
our oral history transcripts, sending them to the library binder, and shipping them off to
other research libraries to get them disseminated. But I think that that early exposure to making primary source
material accessible in a broad way through photocopies actually really anchored
a lot of my career in really important ways. I continued my career
at the Bancroft Library, working at, kind of at the corner of digitization and special collections, and was really engaged in projects like putting finding aids online, digitizing photo collections
and putting those online. And it was really just so
inspiring to me, the potential for making library
collections available online in ways that are easily accessible. When I moved to work to the
Research Libraries Group and CLC in 2001, I continued that path of exploration and considering how can you connect libraries in a global online way. So in 2005, I started my, I opened my Wikipedia account, or signed up for my Wikipedia account, and was really playing
around with the idea of how do you connect. So we’ve got a Wikipedia article here. How do you connect? How do you make books
more accessible online, and what are ways that
people are coming to books? They would come to them here, in the references section
of a Wikipedia article. And so the ethos of
Wikipedia is really about making knowledge freely accessible to all, and libraries are really about that too. So how can you connect these
two really good things? What Wikipedia has that
the library doesn’t have is visibility and scale online. So in Alexa, I checked
today, Wikipedia is ranked number five in the
U.S., and also globally. The Library of Congress, for example, is ranked 1,025 in the U.S. – [Woman] Whoa. – [Panelist] And 4,380 globally. And you can imagine that
the UC Berkeley Library, unfortunately, it gives me
the UC kind of statistics. It doesn’t give me the UC Berkeley Library domain statistics. But the UC Berkeley Library, you would expect, ranks well below that. So in doing a web search
for a book, you’re gonna come up against booksellers
over and over again. So the one hope, I thought,
that we really have to collaborate, is with
this amazing web property. And it’s kind of amazing to think in 2005, Wikipedia was only four years old. Now it’s 18 years old. And the fact that this website has had such durability over time, in that time of amazing change, was something that really,
it would attract it to me, but it’s continued to be attractive because of the mission and goals that I see as very much
aligned with libraries. When I first started working on this, we had a Wikipedian in residence
also, from 2012 to 2013. And even in that time
period, relatively recently, librarians, I would find, were
either massively enthusiastic about this concept or very distrustful. Like, I’ve seen a bad
article on Wikipedia. You know, these articles
are not trustworthy. They’re not doable. Well, Wikipedians would
actually agree with you that there is a lot on Wikipedia
that’s not fully developed. But you’re seeing, I think,
only 0.1% of articles or feature-level articles. So if you’re not engaged
with Wikipedia editing, you may not know that featured articles go through a peer review
process, essentially. – [Woman] Yeah. – [Panelist] To be able to be vetted to that very highest level. The majority of articles are stub or start articles and
are actually quite fine for the intention for
which they’re served, so a small community, or
a small town, or a river. And they have a very short article, and that’s all that that
article may ever grow up to be. But I think that that
kind of finding articles that seem partial or incomplete really triggered a lot of things for a lot of people who work
in education, in libraries, and I think we hear a lot of students say “I’ve been told I can’t trust Wikipedia, “I’ve been told not to use it.” You probably have to do some
de-education. (chuckling) – [Woman] Yeah, yeah. – [Panelist] In your coursework. So the other side of that when I came into editing Wikipedia,
there was also quite a bit of distrust on the Wikipedia community on behalf of librarians. They used librarians
as what they would call conflict of interest editing. Adding links to their
collections to Wikipedia was not, at that time, viewed as being
kind of a kosher behavior. That has changed, but
not all Wikipedia editors have gotten the memo about the fact that people who work at GLAMs, galleries, archives,
libraries, and museums, are allied communities and that should be included in the Wikipedia fold. And there’s also a cultural
norm that Wikipedia editing is done by volunteers in leisure time. So when people who are in a paid position are working with Wikipedia,
that can sometimes bring up some issues for people in
the Wikipedia community, and they may also view
this as being, so the idea that you’re getting paid
for editing can be some of a problem for some of
the volunteer community. But Wikipedians and libraries,
I think, are really united by a common appreciation
of quality sources. So like librarians and others
in the scholarly community, Wikipedians are generally,
not without acception, of course, really adept at identifying and favoring high-quality sources
to support their articles. And this is kind of like
something they innately know and understand, that in order
to support their articles, they’re gonna need to
find quality sources. And you can see, you know, this
very well-developed article that your students created.
(murmuring) But I mean, this is a
very high-quality article, and buttressed by those
high-quality sources. So I think that that’s,
that is one of the things that brings librarians
and Wikipedians together, is an appreciation of sources. And if you’ve ever seen that
citation-needed template either on an article overall
or embedded within an article kind of at the end of a sentence, that is an overt acknowledgement that this is a bit of information
that has not been cited. And it’s something that is
meant to bring your attention, or the reader’s attention, to the fact that this is an unsupported statement. But it’s also an invitation
to do a small bit of editing in a contribution. Connections between Wikimedia projects and the library profession are many, so many that I edited a book
about all the cool things that are going on that bring librarians to work with Wikimedia
projects, including Wikipedia. You don’t have to buy this book because the library here,
in fact, owns two copies. (chuckling) And if that is not
enough, you can get a copy through interlibrary loan. – [Woman] Does it have a Wikipedia page? – [Panelist] It does not.
(laughing) The book does not. I don’t know if it’s notable
enough to have a page. So libraries are an important part of that free knowledge
ecosystem, like Wikipedia, because they magically make resources that are behind a
paywall freely available, which is, in part, why
I tirelessly advocate for the visibility of library
collections on Wikipedia. So, I was asked to talk a little bit about technological
barriers for Wikipedia, but I’d also like to talk
about some social barriers. So how many of you have edited Wikipedia? Maybe like once or
twice at an edit-a-thon. How many of you consider
yourself to be Wikipedians? – [Woman] Sure. – [Woman] Oh! – [Panelist] Bold! You’re, come on, really?! – [Woman] Yeah.
(murmuring) – [Panelist] I see imposter syndrome. (chuckling) I mean, come on. Many people who’ve edited Wikipedia maybe haven’t encountered
the visual editor. Maybe you’ve seen the
pointy angle brackets, and that can be scary.
– [Woman] Yeah. – [Panelist] If you took a look at editing Wikipedia a while
ago and you saw the Wikitext. There is a WYSIWYG editor
called the Visual Editor, which is quite a bit easier to use. You do need to go through some
steps to get it turned on. So I’d encourage you
to take a look at that. The mechanics of editing Wikipedia are relatively straightforward. I’m not gonna say that they’re easy, because it really bothers me when Wikipedians say
it’s easy and it’s fun. Because if you’re
struggling with something, it’s not easy and it’s not fun. So I just want to acknowledge
that, and I have struggled. And don’t, well, anyhow, I
don’t need to go into notes. So, but now that heeding
Wikipedia policies is much more complicated
and novice editors can be confronted with a raft of acronyms. And if you think library acronyms are bad, I think these would give
you a run for your money. So you can encounter these in
reading about policies online, you can just bounce around
from one acronym to another, or you encounter them on Talk pages. How many people know what a Talk page is? So a couple people. So, at the top of every article, so here’s the most, one of
the most trafficked web pages on the planet, right up
here it says article, which is the main space, and
then there’s Talk right here. So Talk is, this is kind of the space where Wikipedia editors
communicate with one another. And you can see that there’s a very robust conversation
going on behind this. So editing Wikipedia, you’re engaging with the community, as Victoria said. And you will encounter things like NPOV, neutral point of view, BLP,
biographies of living people, RS, reliable sources, SWYRT, say where you read it. (laughing) So some of these policies are NOR, no original research,
COI, conflict of interest. And then you get into some that are a little more policy-oriented, like AFD, articles for deletion, or SD, speedy deletion, in discussions. And so here, persistent POV problems, persistent point of view problems. POV is something that’s used
kind of more in the real world. But, so anyhow, you can come to an in-person editing event and meet really lovely Wikipedians, and they really are some
of the most generous and kind people that I’ve met IRL. See what I did there?
(chuckling) But much editing work is done in concert with others online, so kind of learning and taking on some of these norms is really something that
you need to expect too. How am I doing on time? I don’t have a phone, so I have no idea. – [Presenter] You’re fine. – [Panelist] Okay, okay, good. So no one is an expert when
they start editing Wikipedia, and it can really seem
like a daunting task when you get started. And I don’t think that anybody should feel inferior if they don’t. If you feel like it’s
easy, great, sail on. I think that everyone has in mind, when they start this
grand idea of an article that they’d like to write from scratch or a significant
contribution that they’d like to make to an existing article, and that is really a lot to bite off. And in fact, small and humble edits, and contributions like fulfilling one of those citation needed
things and then figuring out how to remove the template,
those are big things. Since this edit event is about sexism in Wikipedia and I am a woman, I will note that the gender gap in Wikipedia is real. It continues to be real. There are not a lot of women editors, and the articles that are there, and there are not a lot of women editors, and articles that are
about men and male topics outstrip articles about women and about topics that
read as more feminine. So let me clearly state that
the answer to this problem and the problems of
other gaps in Wikipedia does not lie in bringing in more women to edit Wikipedia, or
more people of color. Women and people of color
did not cause those gaps. The gaps are there
because of systemic issues around power, and addressing
gaps is everyone’s problem. Equitable representation of knowledge also has to do with reliable sources and what those reliable
sources say and support. I mentioned appreciation
and even admiration of reliable sources as the common ground that unite Wikipedians and librarians. Our reliable sources are also the products of systems of excellence, but
also, systems of oppression. Those sources are the
backbones of Wikipedia. Remember that the primary
sources are not suitable as sources for Wikipedia,
no original research. So we are looking for secondary sources. And without diverse sources that represent the full kaleidoscope
of human understanding and experience, we can never hope to have a free encyclopedia
that is adequate for all of our information needs. So thank you for writing what
you write; it’s important. And yes, there are mean
people on Wikipedia. There are mean people
(laughing) in every online forum and community, and there are even mean people
that you meet in real life. This is not news. But when it’s a hobby, a place where you are choosing to spend precious time, toxic environments are
not kind to new people, and a lot of people walk away. And it’s pretty well-documented that women have more limited
leisure time than others, so I think that the reasons that women walk away from Wikipedia
are well-documented. But I just wanna go on record of saying this is not about getting more people to show up and fix the problems, it’s about making the problems apparent so that everybody can fix them. And I’m so grateful that you’re
getting students involved across the board, and
recognizing what those gaps are, and getting them engaged in setting them. So how can libraries leverage
and work with Wikipedia, and why is it important? So it’s important, as
I talked about before, and as Victoria demonstrated
really well earlier, it’s about the visibility. So it’s about an important touch point with the community that’s
passionately dedicated to open knowledge, as we are in libraries, and they’re really
kindred spirits with us. So I think that uniting
with that community is super important,
and also inspirational. As Victoria talked about
Kevin, I also met Kevin. And like, you know, I think
you put it so perfectly, he didn’t know that
things were impossible. And people who have been engaged in this, in 18 years, they’ve built this resource, and they’ve built it with
all volunteer effort. And I think that one of the things, one of the many quotes about Wikipedia, one of the things that people say, is that in theory, it shouldn’t work, (chuckling) but in practice, it does. So it really is that inspiration and people who just think that, you know, why can’t we do it, why can’t we just keep working towards this vision. And I think it’s really
important for librarians to engage in exercises that help them get the library outside the library. And by that, I mean not just collections, but what is at the heart of every library, and that is the people and the skills that those people bring to bear, which are more vital than ever in a time when discerning the voracity of online sources is
a critical life skill. I would say that the
type of Wikimedia work that aligns with your
work really has to do with the type of work that you do. So if you’re a public service librarian, I think that work with Wikipedia, that kind of information literacy, developing programs,
is really well-aligned. If you’re a collection
development librarian, I think that your
understanding and your research helps enrich particular
communities, and again, probably helps lend itself
well to special collections. Metadata librarians, I
think, would be in love with the Wikidata project,
which I don’t have time to go into today, but I
think is really something that you should keep an eye on and share with your metadata colleagues. And I was pleased to see, who was I, I was talking to the communications. There’s quite a bit of work being done on search engine optimization and making sure that the
library is well-represented. Montana State University has done some really amazing work with
both Wikipedia and Wikidata to make sure that that
knowledge card that comes up, so if you search the Montana
State University Library, the knowledge card that
comes up on the side is really enriched with metadata. And they’ve been doing that
for other units on campus, and I think that that
kind of knowledge work and search engine optimization
on behalf of the campus is something that librarians
can engage with as well. So that’s all I have to say. Thank you. – [Panelist] Wow! Well, my panelists have been so focused and diligent about
talking about all of this. (murmuring) (sighing) Okay, so my panelists,
my fellow panelists, have been really good about talking about both the ins and outs of
some of the history of this, and I’ve sort of stumbled into Wikipedia. I think I might’ve heard
Victoria talk about this, and I was like sure, let me try this. (chuckling) And Wiki.edu sort of made it possible. I was teaching a class,
I think it was called, it was an AC class, Alternative Sexuality. I think it was, yeah, Alternative Sexuality,
Identities, and Communities, kind of an LGBTQ class. And I decided to pair with
Wiki.edu, which was working with the National Womens
Studies Association at the time. And so they kind of made things easy. It was like okay, I’ll sign
on and kind of figure it out. You know, it was a relatively, the class was maybe about 30 students. So I said okay, I’m gonna try this as a kind of pedagogical experiment. And early on in the semester,
we were reading an article about the California missions,
a mission in San Diego. So we’re reading this
article about the missions, and sexuality, and how
they would kind of ask the kinds of things that they would ask of the indigenous population,
the way that they worked them. And there was this story in this article about this Indian man who tried to murder, who tried to poison the
priest at the mission because he beat him daily. So we go onto Wikipedia, and
we actually find this story. But it doesn’t say anything about, it mentions that they tried to poison him. And we added because he beat him daily. And that moment, when we
actually went into Wikipedia and changed that story, and we found, we had this great citation. We had read it in class. But it was this kind of moment. It almost, like, there was a
kind of hush in the classroom. We were kind of editing together. We were online. And we realized that we
had just done something in terms of producing a
different kind of knowledge. So just that moment, that
feeling of that moment, has really sort of stayed with me. Then there were other
things that we found, I mean, a very famous leading theorist of queer of color critique. I know these things, yes.
(chuckling) Queer of color critique. Jose Esteban Munoz is a very important theorist. He had one paragraph, and they had the day that he had died incorrect. A very important figure, much beloved, written several books. And so students were just like oh my god. ‘Cause they had heard of
him, they had read him, and they were like well,
that doesn’t seem right. And so we were able to do that. We were able to go in and not
just produce a page for him, but students translated
that page into Spanish. I think the translation parts of Wikipedia are amazing, both in terms of translating into other languages
and taking information that’s being produced in the global south, about activists and figures
in the global south, and making that information available through translation to
a worldwide community. In that class, one of the things that we’ve started thinking about, you know, I designed that class around a lot of kind of, let’s say, local cultures, LGBT cultures. And so we were reading a lot about, I’ll call, the minor figures, activists that were really
important in San Francisco, and Los Angeles, that maybe there are six or seven articles about
them, maybe in oral history, but certainly not a Wikipedia page. So I started going about
collecting sort of this person seems notable, they should
have a Wikipedia page, and kind of, little by little, sort of tapping into student interests about what they wanted to study, and also just filling in gaps. A lot of what I do is in LGBT studies. There’s an entire generation of AIDS era artists, activists, poets. A very famous poet, like Essex Hemphill simply didn’t have a Wikipedia presence. I mean, so an entire generation of people were simply, they’re
work, they’re influence, they’re voices, were simply
unavailable to this generation. So that was just fantastic. I loved both introducing
students to people that then they became experts on one
thing, on one person. But they found every single source. I had them do Wikipedia
pages on local bars, on gay lesbian bars that no longer exist. Like, who’s gonna, in this
moment of gentrification, the influence of those bars, really, there’s no trace of them on the map. They also did one for our local gay and lesbian bar The White Horse, and to find out the number
of times it had been raided, the number of times that student activists had actually held meetings there. So it’s a short little page. It’s not gonna grow up to be much more. But it is one of the oldest gay bars in– – [Woman] I’ve seen it, I’ve this. – [Panelist] Hey, yes!
(chuckling) Yeah, so it’s this page, right. So they were doing
things, like, about bars. They were doing things
about these sort of smaller, there’s one on Esta Noche. So these little pieces
of local queer history that are kind of in danger of just sort of not
being recognized, right. Yeah, yeah, that’s right, right. And so you can scroll down and see. So they went and they
took a photograph of it. And there aren’t a lot of sources, but they, you know, that’s
like a full little page. They found pretty much everything
there was to find on it. And so the challenge of that, in terms of what it
does to your classroom, is all of a sudden
collaboration is everything. There are students that feel
so comfortable just getting in. They’re really good with technology. And right away, the idea of collaborating, whether it’s about sharing
technical skills or, you know, they certainly knew what other people were working on. So while I’m working on this LA bar, I found this book, right. So they’re swapping sources,
what a reliable source is. The last time I taught with Wikipedia, I did it as a freshman seminar. If you’re unfamiliar
with freshman seminar, they’re like these one unit courses. They’re for freshman. And I just, I think I called it Documenting Marginal Lives, whatever. And I got them set up with Zotero so that they could learn how to collect and keep really nice, pretty sources. And then, we talked, and some of them just worked on one thing
the whole semester. Some of them dabbled and
added different little things. And so I’ll just tell you a little bit of the fun stuff that they did. One student started
going through Wikipedia, and there are a lot of celebrities that had been undocumented. And so all of a sudden
here’s this little pop star. I can’t remember any of their names. But they’re pop stars, you know. They’re really popular with
the 16 to 18 year old crowd. But they had been undocumented. And if that existed in the
press, chances are that person is probably saying something about DACA or talking about what it
meant to be undocumented. So here is just a kind
of fan page for somebody that now has this kind of
political content to it that just wasn’t there
before, and just adding that. Again, it could just be
one or two sentences. We found, I had a Tamil student who found a hijra which is a third gender in India, writer who had written two books that had been published in India. And there was just a tiny thing on it. And he went, he found, like,
there were book reviews of this person, a very minor figure, but making that information available. So once that page was done, I sent it to, you know, my friends that work on India, that work on kind of South Asia queerness. And it was like “Do you
know about this person?” And they were like “Oh
my god, I had no idea.” And these were scholars, right. Just because he had
just, in floating around, I think we had stumbled on a page like, I don’t know, LGBT writers. And I’m goin’ through the page. And I was like “Oh, this is interesting. “Who is this person?” And I see a stub. And I said “Oh, you might
wanna work on this.” And it just became this wonderful thing that he then translated into Hindi. So just the kind of work
that comes out of it can be anything, right. It can really be anything,
and students love that. I love the story about
sending it to their moms. Because what they started doing, yes, was they would post it on
their own Facebook page, right. So all of a sudden they are posting things that other, you know, the
fact that they’re writing for the world and that
they can go onto that page and see how many hits it’s gotten, is just this, it gives
them this different sense of what it means to produce knowledge. It also makes them better writers. I keep telling them
that they are, you know, they’re writing for that
16 year old kid in Nigeria, they’re writing for
the 40 year old man in, you know, Istanbul, right, who wants to find out
something about this. And so get rid of the jargon. You have to really write clearly. They started working together. Before you have a Wikipedian edit you, you wanna edit yourself and each other. So they got really good
at sharing their writing. I mean, students are so always terrified to sort of share their writing. But they knew they were
about to share their writing with the world, and we would always talk about have you gone live yet. And you go live, and then
you sort of wait, right. You go live, you sort of wait for someone to comment, for someone to
see, for someone to notice. But they knew they were gonna go live, and so they wanted that
sentence to be right. And when you have, like, you know, maybe your only adding three sentences. But those sentences are
really clear, they’re sharp. There’s no excess. They’re grammatically, they’re
lovely sentences, right. And they’re well-documented. So it makes them better writers. Because they’re writing
for this larger public, they’re more available, and willing, and excited about editing
and thinking about language. The other things that happened, yeah, the translation stuff
always just would thrill me, just because now all of a sudden something that was in my class was just circulating. I had an international student from China, where there’s quite a bit of censorship. And so her ability, that she was, you know, just started
translating stuff into Chinese. That’s, like, this huge impact,
when we think about impact. I think of the work that
I’ve done with Wikipedia and these students, and
turning them into Wikipedians, as some of the most impactful work that I’ve done on the campus, really, both in terms of what
it means to make things that we study available
to larger audiences, particularly around
questions of sexuality, where in other parts of the world, Wikipedia might really be your
only source of information. So students have edited things
on Sikhism and sexuality. People, when there were changes to the law in India that criminalized sodomy, they finally got rid of the law that criminalized sodomy. You know, going in and adding things about how that was received. So there was some
information about the law had been changed, but adding information from the diaspora about how that change was celebrated, how it was understood, how people in the rest of the world were responding to this change about something that
had happened in India. So really, I love Wikipedia. It’s something that I keep sort of wanting to go back to and finding ways to fit in. Because it really does
change what you think of as, like, knowledge production. It changes what you think
of as what the academic, what the academy can do in
terms of taking the intellectual and material resources of the library. I tell them it’s like, you know, that young person in Senegal
doesn’t have our library. They can’t check out these books. You have to make that
information available to them. And that is, you know,
making knowledge available, is this huge sort of public service. So yeah, I think that’s it,
and happy to answer questions! Yeah! – [Woman] So remember when
you talked about. (murmuring) – [Panelist] Wondering if you guys have dealt with. (murmuring) – [Panelist] Yes. In our class, we tried to edit the Oakland Police Department
website several times, and it was constantly trolled. And it was really difficult to keep it up. And so I had a look just before we came in to see if it’s up again, and
it’s actually quite amazing. Maybe it’s emblematic of the
shift in political discourse around mass incarceration
and the accountability of local police forces, but it is back up. But when we were in the class and we had versions going
up, it really hurt students. And I think this idea of ownership, they became quite fretful about, also, were they doing something wrong, because somebody out
there felt that they were. And so walking them through
that kind of relationship to people feeling that the opinions, they just, we had, originally,
when the site was up, it mainly had listed officers
killed in the line of duty. And that’s where it
kept defaulting back to. And the students were really,
at that moment in time, trying to frame a conversation of the very long history of OPD and particular newer histories, like Oscar Grant and the activism within the communities that came from it. And it was really hard to
keep up for the semester. And for a while, the
students kept going at it and were there. But I don’t know who’s
inherited that page now, ’cause it looks fantastic. So something’s shifted
either in the zeitgeist of the community kind of coming
into it, or, in some ways, maybe, the robustness,
the intellectual work that’s behind the critique
of mass incarceration has exploded so much
in the last five years, there are so many more robust sources to really kind of shore up the page. – [Panelist] I’ll just tell a funny story. There was a page that
was, like, homophobia, and it didn’t say communities, in minority communities
in the United States. It had some kind of title like that, which already seemed wrong to me. Like, really?!
(laughing) You know, I don’t know, it seemed wrong. And I guess we thought
about do we edit this, do we ignore it. But one student was like “Who is this guy? “Like, who wrote this page?!” And did all of this kind of
behind the thing finding out. It was a young person in Britain. – [Panelist] I’m sorry. – [Panelist] No!
(laughing) It was just, it was this British teenager. And then all of a sudden
they were like “What?!” They were like “Okay, forget it. “We got this, we got this. “Yes, we can do this. “If he can do this, we
can do this, right.” So actually, finding out, like, who are these Wikipedians, and what do they have
that I don’t have, right. And it’s really not much, it’s just a willingness to do the work. So I thought that story was really, (humming) it just did
something to the class. They were all, like, just amazed. There are certainly other things. There was a page on, and
the name of that page has gone back and forth a couple of times. But on bathrooms, I’m not quite
sure what it’s called now. It could be sex, sexual segregation or gender segregation in bathrooms or something. And so that page, again, is
kind of responding in real time to some of the legislation,
things that are happening. So that’s certainly this challenge. But it really is about
kind of shaping discourse. One of the things that I’ve thought about, in class we were sort of
talking about lynching. And the New York Times did
these lynching maps using data, so would sort of put dots
all over the United States to see where there had been
incidences of lynching. And so, you know, in the back of my mind, I’m thinking what would
a Wikipedia project be that goes into each one
of these little tiny towns and say “Yes, someone was lynched “in this town, in your town, in this year, “and this is what their name was, right.” So even just, again, it could
be one sentence, one citation. But it really changes. Any person that’s “Oh,
let me see how my hometown “is represented on Wikipedia.” It’s gonna change what
they walk away with. (murmuring) – [Man] Hello. Great work that y’all are doin’. How many of these pages that
your students have created actually survived, or how
many of them are still up, given that 90% of Wikipedian
editors are male and, you know, sort of biased to what they’re biased to? – [Panelist] All of the pages, I mean, I don’t know any instance of one of these pages getting taken down. Sometimes it’s hard to get them up. But once they’re up, they
kinda stay up, I think. I mean, I certainly haven’t gone back to check each and every page. But that was really less of a problem. I mean, in part because the
were doing it under supervision. So these were pages that were well-documented and well-cited. – [Panelist] This is the one I told you had been taken down,
but it’s still up there. Because it’s been very
contested in the last few months around a new bill and some
budget appropriation, but it’s a little one. It’s a little page, but it’s still there. – [Panelist] And if you wanted to, it might still honor,
did I lose this entirely? No, okay. If you wanted to explore this
page a little bit further and get into kind of like what’s going on, the two things that I
would say to look out are the top page, which I showed before, which has any discussion. But then, also, you can
look at the to go back. Everything in Wikipedia is forever, right. This is one of the really
cool things about it, is the history. So you can see when the
last time that somebody, so this article has actually
had very little activity on it. It was created in 2016
and it’s had modest edits, the most recent one being October 2018. So it doesn’t look to me like a page that’s been terrible contentious. – [Presenter] It makes
me worried, though, too, is that why aren’t they
interested in this page? This is such interesting issues. (chuckling) They should be, everybody
should be at this page! – [Panelist] But there’s
all kinds of things. I mean, when you dig into Wikipedia, the page statistics are interesting, and you can see when
things spike in the news. You know, yuu get a huge spike. And I would say that once
you get a page to stick, it’s unlikely to get reverted
or nominated for deletion. If it’s been around a while. Wikipedians are very, there’s
alotta people out there trying to game the system, because it is open for anybody to edit. So people who have those instincts, they don’t have those instincts because they’re male or
because they’re biased. I mean yes, probably,
everybody has biases. But I think that Wikipedians
are very on guard against vandalism and against people trying to get, like, I have my band and I’m trying to promote my band, so I’m gonna write an
article about my band. And that’s why their are such strict rules for biographies of living persons, have much stricter rules
around them than dead people. If you’re dead, it’s cool. You know,
(chuckling) you can be notable. It’s easier to be notable if you’re dead than if you’re alive. Also, obituaries are an awesome source. Like, if New York Times has an obituary, you are golden for material. It’s really easy to write
something from an obit. (chuckling) It’s true. But things like, and if you look at, there’s a page Called
Articles for Deletion. It’s pages that are
nominated for deletion. There are hundreds of pages
nominated for deletion on a daily basis. And if you go and look at that, 95% of that stuff should be deleted. So it really is people trying to, as I said, game the system, or people who don’t understand Wikipedia. They’re like I’m gonna write something about my history teacher, because my history
teacher’s really awesome and I wanna do a tribute to them. But they don’t understand
the notability guidelines, and it’s like, it’s not,
that’s not an encyclopedia. – [Panelist] I just wanna
mention a little something about the Wikipedia community, ’cause you just sort of find out stuff. On these top pages, for example, there are kind of guidelines, for example, when students are writing
about transgender people, about what are called dead names, whatever your name was
before you changed it, and that the Wikipedia
community’s actually pretty thoughtful about these are the guideline for how you write about trans people, these are, something as simple as use
their preferred pronoun, or things like that. So that, those people are also part of the Wikipedia community, right. And so when I found that
kind of talk discussion, I was really kind of impressed
with the thoughtfulness. This is a community of people that really one, wanted to make sure that trans people were represented, but also wanted to make sure
that they were represented in a way that was respectful. And so it was really kind of thoughtful. Related to that, it also meant that when I was talking to students
about writing these things, using a contemporary
term like gay or lesbian just might not be the right term if you’re talking about
another historical period or another place in the world. Are you sure that’s how that
person refers to themselves? So even think having
those kinds of discussions just proved really important for my class. Because in a way, the issues that I wanted to talk about just
kept surfacing, right. They just kept surfacing
in the doing, yeah. – [Panelist] And I think if you look at the development of the Caitlyn
Jenner articles over time, you’ll see a lot of
that discussion play out at a time when the
community had not arrived at those policy guidelines and when there was very divergent opinions
about how it was okay to talk about Caitlyn Jenner or not. And I think if you’d look at the, and people are having it out. You know, they have strong opinions. So it’s fascinating. And like I said, it’s all forever. So you can go back and read
all of those discussions if you want to. – [Panelist] It’s interesting, because some of the conversation that came behind this No
Nude SF Jail Coalition page was also about terminology and vocabulary, and the fight for it. So the students were very adamant that there would be no
prisoner or criminal, but there would be the incarcerated, the formerly incarcerated. And that was, in some
ways, because of, also, the back and forward with the partners who are organizing the
need for these pages. But that started to show up in the students’ own analyses of it. So what does that language look like represented in a policy
document versus a public. And they started, again, to show up in those critical thinking skills about who is the audience, what is the necessary documentation,
how am I gonna phrase this. So to add to what Juana was saying, is that the students wrote so much better for the Wikipedia pages
than they ever wrote for me. (laughing) And it was, I don’t know what it was. I think it was fear, it was general. You know, it was what you said too, is that it has to be legible,
and it has to be clear, and it has to be accessible, and it’s for audiences all over the world. But it was this fear factor
that I am now out in the world, and how I think about these
issues is out in the world. I can’t hide behind a hum and a haw. I’m using either prisoner, or criminal, or formerly incarcerated,
incarcerated person, and I’m making a choice
to put those in that page. So that was interested,
the kind of accountability that they were feeling
towards their choices. – [Panelist] Writing for an
encyclopedia is very different than the type of writing, I
think, that most of us do, which is more towards persuasive writing. If you’re gonna say
it’s the most excellent, you know, if you’re gonna say
(laughing) “This is the most excellent library,” you had better have some documentation that’s not just your website. You know, you’ve gotta have absolutely, like, some statistics to put there, or else somebody’s gonna smack you down for peacock language or
puffery, or your know, there’s all kinds of language
charms that they use. – [Panelist] Have a look what
somebody’s page looks like. – [Panelist] Yeah.
(murmuring) Yeah, so encyclopedic writing is really, it really is a skill, but, I think, a very, being plain
spoken, straightforward, and documenting is a really great skill. Also, a learned skill. – [Woman] Hi. I wanna thank all of you,
first of all, for coming. This has been a wonderful presentation, just a real great variety of perspectives and things to introduce around Wikipedia. So my question, specifically Merilee, I don’t know if I
understood this correctly. You were saying that
the answer to the issues of bias=in Wikipedia aren’t necessarily just to bring more women and
people of color in as editors, and more to illuminate the problem. And I wanted to ask you if you or if any of you could elaborate on what you can see as a
solution to that problem, to addressing the problem. – [Panelist] Well, I’d say
that, the Wikimedia community has done a lot of
self-reflection around this. And if you look in
terms of the annual plan for the Wikimedia Foundation, or they have a 2030
Document, which looks at what the Wikimedia Foundation wants to support. And it really is more
about global inclusion, about inclusion of missing voices, about really taking a hard look at current policies and
practices, and you know, do we necessarily exclude
things like oral histories. Or, for people who have oral cultures, if you’re looking for
a published monograph, you’re just not gonna get to the type of knowledge representation
that you wanna have. So I think that there’s
a lot of focused effort with money behind it from
the Wikimedia Foundation looking to foster projects
that will help address the gap. There’s also a lot of
community-led projects like the Women in Red ART+FEMINISM. You guys, I think, are doing
your edit-a-thon under the, you know, those projects
are wonderful projects. I think I knew that this
was gaining some traction when I had somebody ask me, they wanted to do an edit-a-thon. And they said “Is it okay
for me to do an edit-a-thon “that doesn’t have to do with women?” And I think
(laughing) when people start to think that, you know, the opportunity, and I was like, “You can do it on steam trains,
it doesn’t really matter.” I mean, you know, do it on what relates to your collections, or your interests, or the interests of your community. You can really tailor it to whatever, but there has been a lot of focus on those gap areas of Wikipedia,
and I think that that’s good. I just don’t want it to feel like what we really need to do is
bring in all the women. Because that’s not, yeah. I mean, more women, great. I love going to edit-a-thons
and seeing women. There’s nothing, I went to an edit-a-thon at the Museum of Modern Art in
San Francisco last year. And I walked in, it was like 90% women. And it’s all of those
art library women, too. They dress so well.
(laughing) You know what I mean? They looked so fantastic. So I was like yes, these are my people. So I’m not saying I don’t want more women, but it can’t be like a women-only problem to fix the missing women. – [Woman] So what I hear you saying is don’t put the burden. (murmuring) – [Panelist] Like with any area around equity, diversity, and inclusion, you don’t put the burden on
the people who have already been excluded to fix the problem, yeah. – [Panelist] And it’s
an and as well, right. Is that because, I
think the access points, there’s this authoritative
relationship to Wikipedia that I find, with the students, anyway. They’ve referenced it, they’ve used it, they see it as something that
it is about imposter syndrome in some way, is that authority
looks like Wikipedia. And when there are equity gaps, and who thinks of
themselves as authoritative. And so the idea of centering
those access points where students see
themselves as authoritative has erased framework to it. So I think we’ve been very
mindful in the AC curriculm to make it an AC curriculum project and not just a leisure time project. So we have decals on campus. We have places where students
can gather in interest areas. But the how do we challenge
those assumed roles of authority on sites like Wikipedia. You put them in a classroom and you give everybody access to them, and you support the scaffolding of it. So I think that to diversify
access and interest, it has to be really, really intentional. And I think that that’s why we
started to take it on in AC. – [Woman] You all are Wikipedians, you just don’t know it yet.
(laughing) – [Woman] I realized
that I was a Wikipedian. – [Panelist] Oh yeah,
when was the moment you realized you were a Wikipedian? – [Panelist] I don’t know
if anyone knows Bad Bunny. Any Bad Bunny fans?
(laughing) Bad Bunny is a Latinx trap
star from Puerto Rico. My kid and I, we love Bad Bunny. So on his Wikipedia page, they
said he was from San Juan. He’s not from San Juan. He is from Guaynabo, which
is a much smaller place. Yeah. So I was like “What do you mean?!” They got his home town wrong. So that, yes! Bad Bunny, yes! So we fixed it. So the moment was like wait
a minute, stop everything. I’m going in and I’m
changing where he was born. That’s when I realized when
you stop what you’re doing to go edit a Wikipedia page,
(laughing) then you have to start thinking of yourself as a Wikipedian. Because it was like wait a minute, I can find a source. I found the source. Zotero, download it, drag it, boom, done. 15 minutes later, it was done. It really, it really was that simple. Yeah. So that’s just about they’re wrong, I know better, I can fix this. – [Panelist] And you have the sources too. – [Panelist] And I have the sources. And so I tell students
every article you read, you could add something. You could make Wikipedia better. Every class, every ethnic studies, teaching, every class that you’re taking, you could add something
to make this encyclopedia that everyone has access
to, to make that better. You read the article. You have the citation. Just add that sentence. So again, there’s the big things, and then there’s just adding a little bit that really does sort of change the meaning and the impact
of what those entries are. – [Panelist] And there’s
such an exciting philosophy in what you shared, because the idea that social movement and change is big, and spectacular, and explosive, right. And it’s almost, that’s
a challenge to get beyond with a certain generation that’s been led through big, explosive
moments and popular change. But the idea of the incremental, and the local, and the small organization, I mean, that’s just a life skill, right. That’s pretty cool. – [Woman] I have one question. Where do you see Wikipedia in, like, you were just talking about 2030. Do you see it growing,
what’s the next phase of it, or what’s the next thing,
say, after Wikipedia? – [Panelist] I think
that one of the concerns of the Foundation is that
Wikipedia is very text-based, and that learning is moving much more towards multimedia, and that if Wikipedia remains as a purely text-based learning object, that you’re really, you’re gonna miss out on
a generation of people who’s much more kind of media-focused. So I think that a lot of, I
mean, I would really recommend reading that 2030 Strategy Document. I think that from a point of view of information discovery and consumption, it’s a very interesting kind of look at where they think that
information discovery is going to be in 2030. And if you think about your
brand being very attached to text, then what does
that mean for your brand. And I think that that’s
something interesting for libraries or anybody who’s very associated with
text to take on board. So I’ve been influenced by
looking at their document. I think that the Wikidata project, look at this, Bad Bunny. Bad Bunny’s in so many
different languages. So we were talking
about languages earlier. If you look over here,
Wikipedia is available in 303 languages at the moment. And if you go to, so kind of
the multilingual capabilities for Wikipedia and how
Wikidata buttresses that. So Wikidata is a repository
for facts and metadata. And if you think about
kind of which portion, so things like the info box over here. This is all a bunch of
facts and meta data, right. So if this was available, so the Wikidata page for this is here. So if you pop over to Wikidata, you can see you’re looking at the English language view of it. But you can see, if you change
the language view on this, you’d be able to see all of the labels in different languages. And I think that, you
know, there’s a whole bunch of things here that aren’t represented, necessarily, on the, look
at identifiers people. This is authority control at work. This is all of the work of
your metadata colleagues. – [Woman] I have no idea what this is. – [Panelist] So, Wikidata
is a companion project, like the Wikimedia Commons. (murmuring) So Wikimedia Commons is
the media repository. This is metadata repository for Wikimedia projects. There’s all kinds of cool
stuff goin’ on here, y’all. And the really cool thing is right now, if somebody dies, everybody
jumps to Wikipedia to edit the page and the
language of their choosing. When Wikidata is fully
implemented across all projects, they’ll be dead once. You know, there won’t be, like, (laughing) in Brazil five years from now, somebody will realize
that Bad Bunny’s died and update the death thing. It’ll happen across all
the projects all at once. So it’s kinda keeping all of
that metadata all synched up. So I think that that is a really. So, Google is super paying
attention to this project. There’s a lot of, you know, Facebook. There’s a lot of kind of web properties that are really interested
in the future of Wikidata, because it has potential for just a lot of interconnectedness. And this is really where you
can see the semantic web, and identifiers, and
kind of linked data stuff really coming into play and taking off. – [Panelist] Part of the
reason why I mentioned, I don’t know, any of this stuff, is that there’s a way in which
every time I teach a class having to do with Wikipedia,
I have to learn it again, or, like, how do you add that box, or how do you get the categories. And so, but that also means that you can, with Visual Editor, you can add something without knowing all this stuff. You just, like, you can keep learning. But you don’t have to know it to sort of do all of this stuff. I do think that the image stuff, and it’s also another place where… Wiki Commons, only the photographs that are available are available. And so if you actually type
in something like lesbian, you’re gonna get a certain image of what that looks like. That’s not that diverse, or expansive, or yeah. So those kinds of things. So I’m wanting more, like the one archives in Los Angeles, which is an archive of, it has all this great gay and
lesbian historical material. And it’s like I’m wanting more of that available on Wiki Commons. So I think, because yeah, it
is about making it visual. There are some of these
that have music on them, that have all kinds of just
really wonderful media. And it certainly adds
something to the page. – [Presenter] Yay!
(clapping)

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